Right on, brother Dan. It is our reality that all that we have, all those good things such as eternal life, redemption, forgiveness of sins, and fellowship with Almighty God..., are not things we can boast about obtaining from some personal talent or prowess or whatever. Having these things, in faith in Jesus, are things we could not hold on to if not for the fact that this faith is indeed a gift in itself from God. Thank you for stirring up these wonderful truths in me tonight. I hope I speak for many others. The Lord be magnified in your life.

Interesting viewpoints. Few comments...

Technically, there is supposed to be a logical way to explain God, well at least from a philosophical view. If one thinks of God as being the most omnipotent, (yet abstract?) thing that one can imagine, then the simple fact that you can imagine such a thing exists, explains its existence. Kind of like a "I think, therefore I am" kind of thing. There are many more, I'm sure, but that is one logical understanding I remember understanding.

As far as faith goes, I always think it's kind of interesting how that word is used. I am not Christian. However, I believe in faith and I think it is often what gets me through really hard times...to have the faith that things are going to work out. I don't know why faith is necessary to be in something like A Christian God when it can also be faith in fate, life, whatever, as long as it is a strong faith in something. I just don't think that faith should be so limited to a Christian belief. I often feel like the actual definition of faith has become skewed.

Lastly, I, personally, find nothing logical about being able to quote what the Bible says. The thing I have always most respected about people with a strong faith in their religion is when they can explain to me why they believe this and that, and their explanations do not all center around spitting back what they have read in a book. I hope this does not sound offensive, because I really don't mean it to, but people who believe they have found God through meditation or whatever have had an actual real life experience that makes them feel like God is there for them. I don't know how anyone else can discount that, especially by saying that this isn't true because it is written in the Bible. To me, that doesn't seem logical. We would never be able to prove a theorem by saying that it is printed in this book so it must be true. No, we would make it a point to evaluate it, understand it fully, make sure it makes sense and then build off of it. We wouldn't just repeat it and take it as truth. Perhaps you will disagree, but that is just my opinion.

"Technically, there is supposed to be a logical way to explain God, well at least from a philosophical view. If one thinks of God as being the most omnipotent, (yet abstract?) thing that one can imagine, then the simple fact that you can imagine such a thing exists, explains its existence. Kind of like a "I think, therefore I am" kind of thing. There are many more, I'm sure, but that is one logical understanding I remember understanding."

Technically... according to whom? What philosopher believes this? Certainly cogito ergo sum was never meant to be applied to God. In fact, quite the opposite; if our thought is the only thing that proves our existence, doesn't that mean God can't be proven, since we have no evidence of His thought?

"I often feel like the actual definition of faith has become skewed."

As much as I appreciate the general sentiment that "something is not right with the world," I feel that you're attacking without basis. Faith has been around for a long time and it has always been concentrated around religions. Multiple faiths also don't play well together. When people say "whatever, as long as it is a strong faith in something," it sounds to me like faith serves no function for you except to make you feel better. I must admit that I resent such an attitude coming from somebody that seems to be implying that I'm illogical.

"Lastly, I, personally, find nothing logical about being able to quote what the Bible says."

This article is written as a Christian to other Christians. Christians believe the bible, and so it's okay for me to quote it. Moreover, the bible is never used as an argument in this article; it is only used to describe the demands of the faith. Your (perceived) insult is increased because it appears that you didn't even read the article. I would never say "QED because I read it in the bible," especially to a non-Christian.

"I don't know how anyone else can discount that, especially by saying that this isn't true because it is written in the Bible. "

Okay, it's obvious that you've gone way outside the scope of this article at this point Even so: here's what I say about other people's "experiences" with God. (I'm about to offend a lot of people, but I feel a little moody right now, so offending a few billion people makes sense. )

Sure, people "connect" with God through meditation. They also connect with dead people through mediums. They also commune with demons using pentagrams and ritual dances. So there are just two things I know for sure: 1) Some people who say or think they've "connected" are either lying, misled, or gullible. 2) Not all connections are good connections. And it's not like demons have scales and horns. I'm sure many people have been certain they see God right up to the point where they die and go to Hell.

In short, discounting it isn't that hard at all. I believe in something very strongly; something that has completely altered the way I view the world. I know it might not seem like it right now, but I'm a kinder, stronger, more capable person because of my faith. So for a person like yourself to saunter on to the scene and blindly insult my beliefs without providing any reasonable arguments whatsoever is insulting and irritating, especially what I just woke up and I feel crappy about having slept in.

Dan

Wow, I really offended you. I want you to know that really, I had not expected nor intended to do so at all. I was merely offering my views on this topic. This is not exactly an apology, but more of a truce. However, I would like to leave some comments. Religion is a very sensitive topic. I would think twice before discounting other people's beliefs and practices. Perhaps that is not what you meant to do in this article, but that's kind of how it came off.
However, I do think it's great that you've found solace and understanding in a Religion that really means something to you. Passion in life is the utmost thing I admire in people, so good for you. I'm not here to make anyone angry. Hope you wake up tomorrow feeling a little less shitty.

I can explain God with the fundamentals of chemistry, physics, and math.

As you know, energy and matter are neither created nor destroyed. If this is the case then how does everything with energy and substance exist? Answer- Massive amount of perpetual energy...and perpetual energy is in essence supernatural because we can't produce it. A supreme supernatural power=God. At least in my world view. I take science to heart because it can be proven. The only logical conclusion that I can come up with for the start of the Big Bang is some huge energy source setting it off and everything is a reaction from that initial burst. God or some supreme power seems like the only possible solution to a problem that we otherwise would not understand. However, for academics I do not introduce this theory...it's just my balance between science and religion. I think it makes a good bit of sense...it provides room for religion as well as science without conflict. So I can easily trust the model of evolution without questioning my beliefs in God.

~Zoo

Quick question: Where did the "huge energy source" come from?

Well, that would be where this delves into religion, in this case God and His acting as a perpetual energy source. The source that has always existed and always will...which is completely supernatural because it is based on a religious concept. There is no answer for God's origin either in scripture or my science/relgion theory. Christianity involves a huge leap of faith...with my personal theory, I make that leap more of a hop.

This point of view makes the most sense to me.

~Zoo

"I would think twice before discounting other people's beliefs and practices. Perhaps that is not what you meant to do in this article, but that's kind of how it came off. "

I was irritated because you were discounting my beliefs by trying to make points without the courtesy of making arguments. I would have been irritated if you had done the same on any topic, not just religion.

"I can explain God with the fundamentals of chemistry, physics, and math."'

Zoo, isn't your explanation based on the human inability to conceive of a universe without a beginning? What if the history of the universe extends back ad infinitum as a closed universe, continually expending and then shrinking to singularity under the gravity of its own matter?

Dan

I enjoyed the comment made by "so many questions" . I agree, the concept of faith is not the exclusive territory of Christians. I will attempt to demonstrate along with perhaps another view of what I believe actually constitutes faith.
Each of us has beliefs, about all kinds of things. When these beliefs translate or become the motivation for behavior we have "faith". My understanding is that many believe there is "a God." Belief requires no particular commitment or response. The Bible tells us "even the demons believe". What makes Christians different from the demons? I would suggest that this belief in God, this relationship, motivates something in them to ACT differently. To love, to be compassionate and forgiving, thus emulating God himself.
If one believes in Allah or Budah, the same principle applies. How does their believe become reality through their behavior.
The way I read this verse is like this:
Faith is the substance--Faith HAS substance, it is not a theory or a philosophy, of that which is the reason for an attitude of hope which PROVES what we cannot see. In others words, the way that my life expresses through action the hope i find in God proves that He exists to others. Why, because it changes me. The more I reflect the grace, mercy and compassion of God, the more real He seems to others.
By faith we ARE saved, we come to believe and putting that believe into action, begin to change our habits, focus, ideas, the way we treat others----all those are evidence of our "faith".
More simply put, faith is a VERB not a NOUN or adjective.

I also feel much more influenced by someone who can tell me about their spirituality in a way that doesn't include a lot of biblical jargon but includes how this belief has changed or transformed their life. This kind of "testimony" not only validates to me the existence of God, but also gives me hope, that God is who He says He is, Might to rescue and loving in deed.
JOA

Well, then we're screwed...however, that still allows for a Big Bang, just that there are an infinite amount. I don't know if I believe the theory of an infinite expanding and collapsing universe...I view it as more of a one shot deal...however, no one really knows. It is entirely possible that I'm completely off the mark.

~Zoo

"My understanding is that many believe there is "a God." Belief requires no particular commitment or response. The Bible tells us "even the demons believe". What makes Christians different from the demons?"

This is a borrowed argument, a cliche in most Christian circles. I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't really apply. It's like hearing an employer is a stickler for punctuality and being sure to show up on time, but not actually doing any work and expecting the employer to be happy. Many beliefs are important not in themselves because they imply action or a resulting way of life. You see, you're talking about faith as a noun--simply a thing you believe--even though later you call it a verb, an composite of the results of a belief. Moreover, faith is definitely a noun (but definitely not an adjective--where'd that come from?). If what you're saying is that faith is made manifest in actions, then I agree, but the whole point of the original phrase "love is a verb" is the double entendre, which doesn't happen to exist when it comes to the word "faith."

"Well, then we're screwed...however, that still allows for a Big Bang, just that there are an infinite amount. I don't know if I believe the theory of an infinite expanding and collapsing universe...I view it as more of a one shot deal...however, no one really knows. It is entirely possible that I'm completely off the mark"

Yes, it allows for the big bang, but it doesn't allow for your perpetual source of infinite energy which, I think, was the whole point.

I'm feeling somewhat argumentative. Can you tell?

Dan

[This is a borrowed argument, a cliche in most Christian circles. I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't really apply. It's like hearing an employer is a stickler for punctuality and being sure to show up on time, but not actually doing any work and expecting the employer to be happy. Many beliefs are important not in themselves because they imply action or a resulting way of life. You see, you're talking about faith as a noun--simply a thing you believe--even though later you call it a verb, an composite of the results of a belief. Moreover, faith is definitely a noun (but definitely not an adjective--where'd that come from?). If what you're saying is that faith is made manifest in actions, then I agree, but the whole point of the original phrase "love is a verb" is the double entendre, which doesn't happen to exist when it comes to the word "faith."

Since we are saying exactly the same thing, I reread my comment and I can see that where I was unclear. What I meant is that My understanding is that many believe there is "a God.", however, this kind of "belief" seems to require no particular commitment or response." And "what makes a Christian's belief different than the demons? This is a fair question only because it uses the Christian primary text in a way that demands something more from Them---if you catch my drift. Therefore I do not find it cliche

My point regardless is that in fact if Belief does not take action there is no faith. Faith requires action. Let me further clarify that the use of the word faith in the modern context of "what is your faith" I believe to be a culturally accepted misuse of this word.

Sort of like "awesome" JOKE Dan What they are really asking is "what religion do you align yourself with" not how do your beliefs influence your life.

Yes--about the argumentative--- that's OK We can give it right back

JOA

And "what makes a Christian's belief different than the demons?"

There are a couple problems here. The first is that you seem to be making the word "faith" equivalent with "belief." I believe I'm sitting on a couch. I can see it. I can touch it. i can feel it. But if I have faith that I'm sitting on the couch, I've implied that there is some doubt in the matter. Demons have (theoretically) seen God first-hand. Faint isn't necessary or perhaps even possible for a demon. The second problem is that, even if the demon did have faith that God exists (because for whatever reason it did not have first-hand experience), the demon IS acting on that belief, so it is not our action that makes us different from demons. The question is: if you believe God, do you choose to uphold his will or oppose/deny it?

It's worth mentioning that there is a huge difference between "I believe there is a God" and "if I had to guess, I'd say there's probably a God." The former has faith; the latter has only preference. I think most of the people you're talking about probably fit into the latter category; it's not that they're involved with the whole "God" idea, but it makes sense to them for there to be a God out there, so they imagine one with whatever qualities make Him most convenient for their world-view. This is not the same as having faith without action; instead, they are having preference without conviction.

Dan

Well-- not sure about all the other stuff but I agree with some having "preference with out conviction" and thought it was well put
JOA

Thanks, I was a little proud of that.

Dan